Jungle Republic - Game Over

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Game Information:

Sunshine Corazon wrote:Hey kurt what were you referring to as "talking in a different way"? (in regards to marley)

Like obviously people talk differently, but I think that difference can (IN CONTEXT) be more an indication of alignment than of who the person is. And in context it looks like self-conscious scum trying to choose their words correctly and worrying about how people will interpret their posts.

In relation to how town might talk like in relation to your argument. In context it might look like she was trying to pick her words but she might have just been trying overly to not be nightkilled at that stage. Then now she has to look as towny as possible; not ruling out that she is scum. But im just saying how it was a fairly flawed argument to use due to the number ways it can be taken. You chose one explanation when there could be a whole number. This isnt teaming with Marley just saying how your points, even though surrounded by some very good ones, were flawed by this choice. It just seemed to me like you were trying to hide something.

Emma Pillsbury wrote:
Kurt Hummel: Day 1 is good, but, a little parrot to Finn, and talked about a plan, I don't think he said what. Also said the idea from Finn, Mike and Blaine together, and buddies me some times, I don't think mafia is doing this though. Wel then he agrees with Jesse's vote, on me, so it is balanced, looks to be for town really, as i said day 1. Day 2 he said as much as you can, with the two talking always, looked good except a thing on Mike, he wrote a small thing wrong, he and Finn are all over, possible wants to lynch Seer. Day 3 is good, looked at Jesse, but I don't know if the "find the partner" idea was better than "find the bad guy", I did both, but I will take the second, when I can. Answered my thing in day 4, a mafia maybe scared of this, Kurt also has a small problem, I can't say yet. : TOWN

Again I stress the "plan" was to see the reactions from scum as a result of extension of RVS, Im sure its not THAT uncommon a play. But it did work as guess who jumped on that first! Sebastian ! So yeah might not give me a great image but definitely informed my read of Seb at the end of that day.
Which was the thing I wrote wrong? As i remember for the entire time of day 2 having Mike's claim as the most believable. I didnt flit between the two like Finn did, I kept solidly supporting Mike for the most part BUT tried to show both parts of the argument which is where this "mishap" may have arisen.
Small problem? But it's ok, I can wait for it. I know I'm town so I know I can defend myself on it, whatever it may be.

Marley Rose wrote:
What is your current read towards Sunshine and I then, and who is your biggest scum read so far?

Current read on Sunshine is that she has very towny posts having new ideas on things and not just trying to slide under the radar. I believe the ammount of inactivity isnt a tell to her trying to disappear as scum, so not noticied, due to the fact that she has gone for so long that people start to notice it. Quite an odd argument but i hope people see my point, sunshine having been inactive for so long kinda removes a mafia element because it goes against what the mafia would want to achieve from sliding under the radar. But recent posts have led me to think that she has something to hide which would be totally against a town outlook. So a mixed bag overall.

I will come to you Marley later as it links in to some stuff i want to respond to April about.
Same with biggest scum read.

April Rhodes wrote:Kurt:

Started out shakily especially w/ his bandwagon vote on Mike which he appeared to do as a test? For reasons unknown to me at least. I think while that sort of action is very scummy, the fact that it happened extremely early in the game makes it more forgiveable.

Calls out emma and blaine for not posting analyses when his contribution has been minimal. Dislike a lot, since it’s very easy to overlook that sort of thing, considering attention is usually directed to “hey, why haven’t they followed through” instead of the accuser and whether or not he is really in a position to call people out for such a thing, which Kurt was not.

Kurt points out a lot of problems w/ marley in his reads post day 1, including PR fishing (which is really serious) but somehow thinks that’s not a big enough deal to make her null. His points on why marley is good are vague and unclear, while he writes a lot on the bad stuff, but she’s still a solid town. To me that’s not consistent with the rest of his reads. I can see kurt buddying Sebastian early day 1 as that’s a good opportunity to do so without taking too much pressure (much more likely for no one to notice/call out).

Recent read on marley is very wishy-washy with a lot of “could be town, could be scum” and no definitive call on which she is. I find that when people don’t make it clear if they read a user as scum or town, it’s very likely the read does not actually have an opinion attached to it.

Just noticed that Marley was suggesting mike was a PR which isn’t something very townish to do. Makes sense that she would be mafia as she wouldn’t have a kill and might want to be publicizing it to urge the WWs to kill Mike, which didn’t happen lol. Surprised no one (including myself) caught on to that.

Kurt for the most part feels to me like he’s town, but he seems to have a connection with Marley that is suspicious to me. His early play did not bode well for him, but recent posts suggest a town outlook. I think it’s important to continue to watch his relationship with Marley.

/end kurt

Alright, I’m tired so good night. Hope this helps you guys if you decide to lynch me 

See above on these " reasons unknown" basically they helped me form views on Seb which helped in my d1 reads. And yeah it was extremely early in the game, still technically RVS really which i thought wasnt that uncommon.

My contributions werent that minimal, the post count wasnt the higher than those two but definately higher with content over some other players at the time... i dont mean dave.

Now the marley one. This is important to respond to. I was fairly sure that I was just picking at some useless information due to the fact that clearly no one had even seen it. I thought I might have been on to something yet apparently it looked like it probably wasnt to be due to no one noticing it. I thought it was pretty obvious yet if the majority of people passed it off as unimportant then i kinda just thought subconsciously that i made a mistake. Its fine in hindsight saying "it was enough to make her null" but thats in hindsight with the tables having turned against her. She practically had a fanbase of the overall majority calling her town. The vagueness wasnt really that vague in my opinion, just vague compared to the bit on bringing Mike out as seer. Additionally it wasnt "solid town" just "town" and i had a bit in there i think about hoping others would make opinions on the matter. When no one really kinda pushed it on except Sunshine i left it really.
Was the bit about no one picking up on Mike the possible PR being pushed by Marley aimed at you? Because Im fairly sure that was in my arguement against marley in d1, so i think that means that I did pick up on it. This is exactly evidence that I got which made me to consider whether my read on marley was a mistake. People not noticing what i classed as important infomation led me to believe I had missed something major as well.

Basically the fact that people didnt notice me picking holes into something that people didnt notice in the first place kinda meant to me that I should try a different tack.

Leads me to the read on marley: Now i know the last one wasnt that precise, had to cram a lot into the short amount of time i had. But I think now people have started noticing the things I was talking about in D1 then we can collectively reach a judgement on her. And due to people noticing it I think it I can finally use it to inform my read on her as previously it wasnt taken seriously. Overall I would class her as leaning towards scum like i have been doing this day. I thought that i made it fairly clear that i had her more scum than town in that D3 read but aparently not so. But that was my judgement. Just going to post my D1 read to make up the bulk of the reasoning:

However some points go against that like continuing to say how Mike is a possible Town PR. By stating that it makes it look like you WANT the scum to see it and act on it. And some fixation on Sunshine being Hannah which reminds me of the Blaine/Mike ZZZX fiasco that occured earlier. I believe this is a joke most likely, as coming from pg 1 but if not the way it links back to the event mentioned before is another piece of evidence why Marley is more dubious.

Me there showing how Marley is wanting scum to see it possibly. Just remembered another reason why i didnt use this against Marley was that I thought it might have been due to her wanting to warn everyone else from not voting him.
Hmmm just went back to straight after Mike NOT getting killed in the night and Seb being killed instead, Marley's First post :

Marley Rose wrote:Oh lord that crossfire. 

Sad that Blaine had to get lynched, his actions really met his demise. Anyways to start things off let's go for 

vote Kurt Hummel

Interesting. Odd how she didnt reply to me at all ever since i posted that analysis of her and then straight after, probably realizing that Mike didnt die comes after me. Dresses it up as me not getting involved properly in the Blaine voting.
SO Yeah this shed some new light imo, gonna put her as my top scum read. BUT i want to hear what other people say first.

@april a while ago: doesnt your definition of tunneling imply townness? i see tunneling as a scumtell if a player focuses entirely on a single other player without pressuring or considering others as scum. you can say that you would have voted someone else all ypu want but the fact of the mater is you completely zoned in on blaine d1 amd pretty much ignored everyone else while blaine did so to mike for a bit but ultimately actually showed he was willing to put pressure and his vote elsewhere

Sorry for my last post, I had to write fast, real life things, but I think I said the points, that I thought of.

Marley Rose wrote:I don't know why it's scummy for me to not immediately push for hammer in this type of setup. You're just willing to sacrifice a few townies to just to check whether or not your claim is true. (This being directed to Emma). Regardless of what they say. Right now we have vanilla mafia with no kills and being too aggressive with this will just end up making you look worse with every mislynch.

I do not know, just what "directed" means in this, but in case this what you mean, I do not believe a person will put the hammer early, or they are bad. But then, we have a way to catch one easy, and the setup is good again. And i think I am right

Marley Rose wrote:Not really much to say except everyone saw Mercedes as pro-town, and everyone else was inactive at that stage of the game.

day 1--

Emma Pillsbury wrote:Mercedes same place as Marley I think, says Mike and Blaine have too much attention but posts about them alot. Sunshine but less Town.

I said a warning, maybe not a bad read, but a point not all agreed on, (and on you the same read).

Marley Rose wrote:Emma, if I hammered April last night, would your opinion on me have changed?

In one way, my thought on the hammer is, early is a bad sign, I do not see l-1 the same though.

April Rhodes wrote:Her reads are really sporadic. First ones, gets Sebastian as slight scum. But then her next one is confusing in that she’s pretty much summarizing and not adding anything new ie “posts are only a few” “he and Mike buddies” “parrot a lot” and then her read on Kurt in the same post has no reasoning. This sort of stuff is annoying because a lot of Emma’s posts up to that point were “town town town” but then I read that one and my mind is completely changed because of how out of place that post feels.

Is that post, to mean this?

Emma Pillsbury wrote:

Also, Emma, if you want my vote off you, your best bet is to prove to me why Blaine, Sebastian, or Kurt is more scum.

Blaine--
-Only votes are wagon joining, 4 on Mike, 4 on me.
-tunneling Mike with no arguments, talks about ZZZX instead, insults for 3 pages.
-Suddenly Mike was a town read, Blaine waited to get off until he got into a bet, the bet is Blaine dies if Mike is Town. Blaine would vote his town read if it doesn't hurt him, that is the mark of a bad guy
-Blaine waits days and days to explain a vote, a read would be Okay, but a vote!!
-Acts like he's a big deal, insults users, angry at others who act superior and insulting, hipocritical = bad. Says multiple posts in a row are a bad tell, not true, lies = bad.
-only his opinions on me and Sebastian can be from a town view, all of his posts before were clearly bad, probbly trying to save himself.

Sebastian--
-posts are only a few, cautious, not a big tell though
-I thought he and Mike buddied before. he took it back, and if you look, Mike's opinion on a player is like the players opinion on Mike, can be a tell for less experience or bad, so not big again, but still suspicious.
-Posts are big but parrot alot, it takes time to find all the ones he copies, but if you still don't believe me, I can look for many.

Kurt--
-I don't think Kurt is bad actually
-Still more bad than me.

Jesse asked me why the three are bad, more than me, actually. My old Sebastian opinions were the same, but to show a big parrot problem, i need to quote a big post, take each idea, find an early post, where it's the same point, and again and again. This is a pain, I thank the Wolf for killing Sebastian. I was not thinking, Kurt is bad, I had no new evidence, and I said so.

April Rhodes wrote:Her behavior on the Jesse lynch was confusing. It seemed that most of the village was with Mike (including Marley’s “YEAH I was impartial to get him to do reads OFC”) but the vote on Mike was weird, considering the logic of “if that’s what Jesse posts when he’s dead.” Thing is the tell is more geared towards Emma being WW which obviously isn’t possible.

I was scared, after Blaine, it was the same post, for his death, and I was weak

April Rhodes wrote:I’m not sure why Emma is voting me, and atm it looks quite opportunistic considering the fact there is no mention of why she is voting me. Maybe I’m just lost in the wording, but assuming I’m not her vote on me doesn’t look good tbh.

The idea of you and Marley, I thought already, and I said some evidence, sorry if my explaining then is ugly:
-I saw you parrot day 1, even if Marley says not,
-I think day 2 was a problem, not "activity", but ideas, even a few posts can say more (Sunshine)
-if you and Marley are a team, it is the same thing, I felt good you were

April Rhodes wrote:I would put her over Dave simply due to her being around and more active than Dave, although def. not over Marley.

Do you say in this, activity is bad, Or Marley is good?

Mercedes Jones wrote:@Emma: Can you explain why you think my d2 actions are potentially scummy from the context of operating within the mafia- what my motivations for those actions would be, who I'm working with, etc? Also, I'm struggling to read your posts, they're quite incoherent.

I do not know about a partner, but this is the idea
-A town player says "Who is real?", posts views to find it out.
-A Werewolf player says "How can I kill the town guy?", tries to kill him, in some way.
-A mafia player says "Who should die, Seer or Wolf?", tries to think which, then to find which one is who.
The town and the Werewolf, they are fast, they know what to want. the mafia is slow, he is not sure what to want, so I think when you stopped, then went all on one guy, maybe you were thinking how to do it.

Mercedes Jones wrote:D3- I was not attempting to deflect attention from the mafia. Can you provide any post where I did so? for that matter, when Dave targeted me, I did not attempt to deflect attention. I instead answered his points, trying to explain my actions and why they were not scum. As for focussing on WWs, it probably looks that way, because we had FAR more evidence for the next WW than for any of the mafia.

Mercedes Jones wrote:The way he specifically points out that we should view these people as scum when he knows he's about to be lynched and flip scum, indicates that he wants to manipulate how we view those players. I'm wondering whether he may have listed his partner among them, knowing that his scumreads will be taken less seriously once he flips. Unless that's a little obvious and he hasn't done that at all (Not sure how likely this is though- The damn thing tends to just go around in circles).

...
The thing that pisses me off about examining scum's reads is that they're obviously rubbish since he was scum. But the fact that they're obvious could potentially be utilised. Running around in circles.[/quote]
This is after I posted my point on Jesse, if we had the evidence for Werewolves, why is it all a circle? Before Dave voted, your response was just, here is why to look on the others. And i think there was evidence on the mafia, we all talk day 1 Sebastian now, but when I put day 1 Sebastian in day 3, Dave gave one reaction on Marley and no more talking about it. I think that if we killed the wrong guy day 3, Day 4 would be the same, we would be on lylo before we start to think of the mafia. This is not just you, but I do not like it from others, as well.

Kurt Hummel wrote:Which was the thing I wrote wrong? As i remember for the entire time of day 2 having Mike's claim as the most believable. I didnt flit between the two like Finn did, I kept solidly supporting Mike for the most part BUT tried to show both parts of the argument which is where this "mishap" may have arisen.

Sorry, i mean Mike, he said the "we" post, you and Finn were on it hard. It looks like a small mistake (1 letter), and the reaction is more than it.

Small problem? But it's ok, I can wait for it. I know I'm town so I know I can defend myself on it, whatever it may be.

With some of this post, and with the nightless game now, I think I will say it now. This post is big, I will try to have small quotes, because it is 2 ideas now, but related

I was fairly sure that I was just picking at some useless information due to the fact that clearly no one had even seen it. I thought I might have been on to something yet apparently it looked like it probably wasnt to be due to no one noticing it. I thought it was pretty obvious yet if the majority of people passed it off as unimportant then i kinda just thought subconsciously that i made a mistake. Its fine in hindsight saying "it was enough to make her null" but thats in hindsight with the tables having turned against her. She practically had a fanbase of the overall majority calling her town.
...
People not noticing what i classed as important infomation led me to believe I had missed something major as well.
...
But I think now people have started noticing the things I was talking about in D1 then we can collectively reach a judgement on her. And due to people noticing it I think it I can finally use it to inform my read on her as previously it wasnt taken seriously. Overall I would class her as leaning towards scum like i have been doing this day. I thought that i made it fairly clear that i had her more scum than town in that D3 read but aparently not so. But that was my judgement.

I read this, and I see, "I find tells, think Marley is in the middle, maybe not so town, but not a bad guy, until other people say she is", and, "other people just saying "town", means she is town"
I have been thinking, even in day 1, you will say things other people don't think, sometimes I agree but no others, as I said:

Emma Pillsbury wrote:Jesse, with Kurt, I'm not buddying because of his opinion of me, he and Sunshine think outside the box sometimes, that is a town thing to do I think, no matter theyre thoughts on me. Bad guys can agree with others all they want, no harm, but a good guy wants to discover.

But you say now, it is not right, unless other people agree. I do not think this is a town thing to think, how do you get bad guys, if you say the "no one noticed" means you are wrong?
here is the second point, but it is the same point, what I thought of before:

Kurt Hummel wrote:

Mercedes Jones wrote:

Kurt: Why did you not use your vote?

Because Dave was there first is the short answer.
Looks scummy, reads scummy, but ultimately the truth.
I was like "yeah I'll wait till morning ik he's a L-1 but like anyone will hammer at this time, wait till later cause need sleep"
They hammered.
Which is why I am also eager to hear why Dave voted Blaine.


Nice eating flesh graphics Mike

Ian Brennan wrote:Jesse St. James (6) - Mike Chang, Sunshine Corazon, Mercedes Jones, Marley Rose, Finn Hudson, Kurt Hummel (L-0)

Ian Brennan wrote:Finn Hudson (5) - Emma Pillsbury, Marley Rose, Mercedes Jones, April Rhodes, Kurt Hummel (L-0)

Day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4
Wants to hammer, hammer, hammer, no vote
You do not push hard, also not vote, unless it is the "collectively" agreed idea. I just thought, "why does he always hammer?", but now it is, "is anything he believes, not the agreed idea?" I do not trust you now, if you do not stick on your ideas, do not vote unless its certain, this can work on lylo, but that is just blending, if it is done always.

I need to think again, with April's opinion on Kurt + Marley, I may have the wrong team with April + Marley.

Unvote: April Rhodes

Emma Pillsbury wrote:Everyone, please say, was Finn your top guy for the Werewoolf?

AND this from day 2

Emma Pillsbury wrote:I want a votes count from the mod.

I'm not sure I understand the question you are asking me so i'll leave that to you to refine for me.

The difference between me and Blaine is that Blaine was convinced of Mike's scuminess  by virtue of simply him believing it. The whole 3-5 page banter with Mike shows how he was convinced that Mike was scum simply because he chose to see it that way. That was not at all like the case w/ me and Blaine.

In my case, I felt that a Blaine lynch was the best course of action during the day. I posted all the things I felt Blaine was incorrect on which I felt made him bad. The other options at the point were not as good of a lynch as Blaine at the time, so I stuck with my vote. If someone else had appeared as a better target, I would've switched. In my eyes, you vote your #1 scumread. Some people might disagree, but I stuck with Blaine because I was confident with my read. If you looked at my reads, you could see that Blaine was my top read and I went with that.

I will respond to emma later today as I should really go and eat breakfast!

My connection died as I was sending the post so everything I was typing / quoting all disappeared. 

That's just great.

Lack of sleep + Unwillingness to repost + Exhaustion + Pressure will make this post really incoherent and all, I just needed to say something before I get some decent rest, hopefully not getting hammered then.

Anyways, I'm sticking to my scumpair, Emma and April. Initially I was going to go for Emma, then switch to April/Sunshine depending on how the votes/arguments go but it seemed as if majority took it as an opportunity to begin pressuring me for answers. 

I can't really comment of most of the thread now because I'm exhausted and I'm just droning away. 

I might be able to give my better reads tomorrow when I wake up, assuming people don't immediately jump the gun. 

Mercedes: Decent player, pro-town most of the time. Town. 

April: Led the bandwagon on Blaine and there were a lot of scumtells during d2 that really set me off. Response to Jessie being accused by WW was piss poor and incredibly scummy to me that's why my vote was on her. I tried reading back and isolating her posts but I just couldn't get anything. 

Emma: You're probably the scummiest person in play right now (bar myself as everyone mentioned) and I've already added my two cents in my reads towards you. My votes stays on you whether you like it or not.

Kurt: Seems to be the only one taking my side, but I'll be truthful, I can't really trust you. If the lynch does push on without your vote, you can just use it as an opening to clean yourself a bit. Focus on Emma and possibly Sunshine for leading the rand despite bringing up your points and use it to convince the town your way. It could all be deception right now, or I could just be paranoid. I'm just going to leave this in the case I do get lynched out, which will eliminate that play.

Dave: Is not posting shit or explaining things ever since the day started. I did jump a little off the board by "cleaning him" for noticing that Dave was subbed twice. It'd look really scummy on my part for doing that. To be fair, I was just trying to hasten up the process since I was fairly confident with my reads with April and Emma. Today though makes it much more confusing.


If you're all going to use my inability to stick to a certain person as scum and flipflop mostly, it's because I really have a hard time finding out who is whom at this point of the game. Every player has a good point and also an underlying scummy point. Probably wrong of me as well trying to avoid a jumping on immediate hamemrs to avoid mislynch to save myself some points for the tournament but I guess I'm regretting that. 

I don't really have much to say. I jump from one person to the other because I don't really have anyone to trust at this point of the game. 

That's why I'm keeping my vote on Emma. She, in my opinion, is the scummiest player in the game. Disagree with me if you must, but I've tried to poorly summarize what I had before my post failed.

Considering I don't get hammered during the night, I'll try responding more tomorrow. I'll at least try to answer questions and not walls and walls of text.

clarify 

my vote wasnt on april it was on emma, i just meant that my second scum tell was on ehr

Marley, if you "couldn't get anything on me," how can you find me so scummy, unless I am misinterpreting the meaning of what you said? I'd like you to expand on "a lot of scumtells during d2" considering the fact that I've explained my play as due to a lack of time and being unable to post more thoroughly. So yeah, I don't really understand what day 2 scumtells you are referring to and I would appreciate you expanding on that so I can address them.

Interesting to note that Marley left off Sunshine on her reads.

I don't know what "response to Jessie being accused by WW was piss poor" means or what it possibly could be referring to.

Emma's "I was weak" post is a pretty poor excuse for voting Mike imo. I meant that I would lynch Marley over Dave right now since Dave's inactivity means we have less to work with.

april:
your working def of tunneling is:
"Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them."
this implies a player is town yes? so how can this definition actually be a scumtell?
i also like hat the definition you chose has such town connotation. if you google "tunneling mafia" heres the first result:
"Tunneling is the act of focusing solely on one person to lynch, generally while ignoring the other players."
this definition fits exactly what i was talking about but its interesting you may have went out of your way to chose a different one in order to defend yourself.
i have no problem with your pressure on blaine but the fact that you focused solely on him makes me think you were more concerned with forcing a mislynch that wasnt one of your teammates rather than hunting scums. plural.
granted your play improved in regards to tunneling but i would expect nothing less from an experienced player under pressure.
i havent read a lot of the tldrs so sorry if im not responding hopefully i can read beire the deadline

Spoiler:

Two players--change opinions on inactives, for Sunshine and Dave, see Mercedes as town (with short explaining), vote each other. I see a connection, this is why.

Ready to defend myself:

Emma what you are saying is a very extreme analysis of the truth. I say that because I do accept it partially however they way it is used as a possible scum tell is too far. The issue with me and sticking to my own points:
When you have gone through quite a bit of thought to produce a read through certain tells and then not have anyone say anything on the matter must always bring up alarm bells in any logical towns person. The town are the majority and if fellow townsfoke don't recognise what would seem to me as a perfectly reasoned tell then one must look back and see whether a mistake has been made. Its never that "she is a bad guy until people say she is" it's just that I have a point, people clearly don't think it is true, maybe that is the case.
What would be totally illogical would be to continue down a path that is wrong however have the sheer blinkidness to ignore similar logic and continue to say I am right; everyone else is wrong.
What you are suggesting Emma is that I should've stuck to my guns which in hindsight probably should've been done. BUT emphasis on HINDSIGHT there. In the situation that this occurred in I did not have this luxury and had to face facts with logic and therefore go with my brain. If it looks like a wrong tell and quacks like a wrong tell, probably is. However with new developments and posts i have been able to finally push through what I have been thinking from the start. As you may have noticed I have not stopped thinking about mg original points on Marley, just other things have taken the foreground.

On the votes side:
Just because I hammer does not mean I don't have my own opinions. But firstly the point of a lynch is that it is a collective decision to remove someone from the village. By not having a collective town then there is no strength at all in hunting the opposing scum. The point of a collective is that you support each others ideas which is why I have been responding to as many different arguments even ones that don't directly affect me which is what a towns person would do.
Next of course im going to vote when something is close to certain in my own view, when I have that certainty I have the confidence to go and vote. The fact that I have hammered BOTH ww's means I must have some high confidence in my actions.
Finally I proved as well why I voted the people I voted with sufficient evidence which cannot be said for some characters around who even after seeing they don't have enough evidence continue to place the vote. My votes are well placed and pro town and of my own accord through my own reasoning which is what makes me town.
---
Overall your points are incredibly exaggerated and I hope I have been able to conclusively disprove your claims of not having free thought etc away from me so that you return to your original correct view that I am town.

--notes:
-not sure why emma is obsessed with her "question" concerning our thoughts on finn. care to explain? to give a brief answer myself to the question: i thought there was a chance hed flip ww you can see my analysis on him but i also thought he was somewhat scummy in general so i wouldnta been suprised if he flipped maf. he woulda been lynch priority #3 for me but i woulda hammered at deadline with little regret.
-concerning aprils post: cant really defend myself concerning the play of my past selves other than saying yes it was pretty poor but definitely noob town. like their play would be dumb for both town and scum so i dont think its a strong tell either way
-concerning me being overly concerned with inactivity i just dont want it to look like im going "oh look im not a lynch target cool i dont have to contribute". im just legit inactive. course theres no way to prove this so i just tried to sound sincere i guess.

will continue responding to stuff and then go back and reread seb as i find time

@Emma The evidence was there, it's just analysis was a little difficult and frustrating due to the level of WIFOM involved in analysing Jesse's reads.

Also your case regarding my lateness in coming up with claims on d2 seems very insubstantial- you've made assumptions about the mentalities of various groups and decided that because I took a bit of time to develop an opinion I must be scum- I've already explained why I took so long and you seem not to consider this explanation.

Wall of text on Emma:

TL;DR Her day 1 was monstrously suspicious, days 2 and 3 didn't redeem her but didn't really worsen her case either, I'm finding her current arguments not all that great.

Vote Emma Pillsbury

Next best lynch candidate to me would be Marley, I'm a little more suspicious of her, largely because of the inconsistencies involving her and Sebastian.

Everyone else I think might be town, but I feel like Dave, Sunshine and Kurt are getting a free pass, so...

My post didn't send again. -headdesks- I have to rework everything ffs.

April Rhodes wrote:I might've missed it in the 10 billion pages of nothingness but Jesse, you mind explaining why you voted Dave after inspecting him as Town? Even w/ the possibility of mafia, it doesn't make sense to vote him unless you have a really strong mafia read on him.

April Rhodes wrote:do u even lift

Worthless fluff post

April Rhodes wrote:jesse u didn't answer my question???

April Rhodes wrote:

April Rhodes wrote:do u even lift

and another.

If you can't see from your posts above, those really made your motives for the game really questionable. 

I left out Sunshine's read last night because I was too tired to really work on the full read again and I accidentally left her out. Strange that you took it to heart a bit too much.

If you're going to start pressuring me for wanting the Werewolves out early in the game, I think you're really missing my point here. I'd much rather play Vanilla mafia and use the information and scumreads in the game to actually work something out, rather than hope for a crossfire between WW and Mafia, whose odds are incredibly shaky considering there is a bigger chance of hitting a townie rather than the Mafia goon. That would mean losing one of the more town-based players in the game, Mercedes Jones. To be fair, I'm glad that the threat of Nightkills is gone so we can actually work on using everyone's reads. 

The reason I'm constantly bringing up Sebastian's reads right now is because he has the most we can work with in finding Mafia goons. I've already highighted some of his posts which was able to lead me towards the possibility of a scumpartner with Emma. 

I originally had a Null/Town read with him during the D1 because he was thorough and well thought of with his posts despite some inactivity. It was really difficult to pin him down as scum because unlike some fluff posts, I was actually able to work out something from his posts as they were relevant towards the game and seemed focused on scumhunting. Him flipping as Mafia goon was really unexpected for me.


Back to Emma, as I've said, my vote is staying on you for the lynch, whether or not it pushes through. 

For April, you were simply the lesser of two evils, that's why I added you up as a partner. Though from today's reads I'd have to move towards someone else for my scumpartner read. 

That being Sunshine Corazon. 

The moment I brought up the possibility of a scum pair between Emma and April she immediately jumped on the offensive against my inconsistencies. I don't really know how I was inconsistent considering Emma was one of my earlier scum reads (ever since Day 1). I could take this act of her as Chainsaw defense because I was leaning towards Emma for my vote. Using my mispartnering of April to use a leverage to tip the pressure towards me. 

April and Emma's claims against one another might've cleared up some room with April, but I'm still cautious about bussing so I'll have to dwell deeper once the hammer happens.

Dave Karofsky wrote:april:
your working def of tunneling is:
"Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them."
this implies a player is town yes? so how can this definition actually be a scumtell?
i also like hat the definition you chose has such town connotation. if you google "tunneling mafia" heres the first result:
"Tunneling is the act of focusing solely on one person to lynch, generally while ignoring the other players."
this definition fits exactly what i was talking about but its interesting you may have went out of your way to chose a different one in order to defend yourself.
i have no problem with your pressure on blaine but the fact that you focused solely on him makes me think you were more concerned with forcing a mislynch that wasnt one of your teammates rather than hunting scums. plural.
granted your play improved in regards to tunneling but i would expect nothing less from an experienced player under pressure.
i havent read a lot of the tldrs so sorry if im not responding hopefully i can read beire the deadline

The definition does not imply the player is town. In fact, it doesn't imply anything about the user because at it's core, tunneling is a fallacy that any variety of people can engage in.

If you google "tunneling mafia" the second result you get is the "definition" I am using, but nice try! You can call that "going out of my way" but I would call it "choosing the more credible source." Mafiascum, the site that specializes in NOC games, or epicmafia the site that specializes in mostly retarded and broken fast-paced games. Let me know what you think on that one!

Day 1, I was mainly concerned about lynching scum, as I still am. What I was doing wasn't tunneling (under my definition, which I think you would agree, is the correct one).

Mercedes, I am not sure if what you are referring to when you say how you took a while to come up with claims on d2 is the same as "I can see how the fact that I reached my conclusions only after several others did isn't looking too good, and frankly, I'm not sure how well I can argue that point, since it really is just coincidence that they started really pushing Jesse shortly before I did," but if it is I am a little confused as to the sudden switch from "oops my b" to "ur scum." So I guess I am confused as to what you are referring to by "claims." Elaboration would be excellent!

Marley, are you claiming that first post is fluff? how so??? the next three posts were (obvious imo) jokes, considering Jesse's strong negative reaction towards me. When someone goes full retard (exuse my negativity, but it best describes Jesse's reaction) like that, I don't find it wise or useful to grace it with a response. So yeah, that's on me I guess.

I wasn't making a big deal over anything, I was simply making an observation and stating how I found it odd. You seem to be getting defensive over this now I notice *shrug*

I didn't get to add it since my initial post got deleted, but your first post was copying my question to Jessie. 

That was an example of a non-original parroting post you made.

Response to April: It's a little funny because I'm confused as to what it is you're confused about. I'll try explain anyway, but I'll probably just end up explaining the wrong thing. Oh well.

Emma's claim that I took too long in developing a stance on Jesse/Mike is slightly different to the point Dave made against me on d3. However, they're extremely similar points, just Emma's is piss-weak and unlike Dave's, is compatible with mafia, not just ww. Because they're so similar, I feel that my response to Dave's post adequately addresses Emma's point.

What sudden switch are we talking about here? And what is the context of the "claims" you find so vague?

I've said what I needed to say and plurality will likely lynch me out. Good luck town.

found time to do stuff. somehow.

k so im going back and looking for interesting interactions with seb, organized player by player. here goes.

sunshine corazon:

sunshine corazon wrote:However, I think the scummiest player is definitely sebastian Smythe though.

vote Sebastian Smythe

Do you have an opinion? He actually hasn't said anything is scummy and has just summarised stuff which is so much easier for scum to do than actually scumhunt. His posts indicate that he's trying to appear helpful without being helpful. He also sounds experienced so I expect him to actually scumhunt from, even this early in the game.

not really sure where this is coming from because in the post before seb literally calls finn scummy. so this "scumread" seems pretty fabricated which leads to believe its a possible bus. not conclusive, just worth noting.

seb responds saying "However, I do feel my post makes the point that Finn and Kurt are likely scum partners, and they're my two top scumreads currently." note that the response isnt all that strong but its kinda a null tell imo.

sunshine wrote:Sebastian would still be my top scumread. I feel like every post is just kinda re-presenting what happened and giving us information. Also the fact that he jumped on users for "buddying mike" but hasn't actually said (iirc I'm not 100% on this so can be proven wrong) "yeah mike is reallly scummy" is quite odd.

I feel like he needs some more pressure to post real reads and step back from mike, blaine and give us something legit

this scumread is better reasoned than the first one. however i do think its interesting she openly recognizes mike and blaine are taking up all of the spotlight at this point. seems like the kinda mindset that recognizes a chance for a bus.
yes im very suspicious of day 1 busses simply because of the way the day went.
after this post with better reasoning tho im feeling a bus is less likely. but still possible.

marley rose:

marleys vote and following unvote of seb is quite off to me. there is no reasoning given besides "horrible plays call for drastic ones" so i guess marley im really wondering what was going on here.

note: i put stuff about marley in emmas section.

marley wrote:Sunshine and Sebastian bring up a mixed bag of feelings. While both have pitched in a bit, they still didn't manage to contribute anything of worth to the village. Maybe providing an obvious overview and attempting to pull out the other inactives to the discussion which should already be implied.

noncommital read on seb. however its interesting that she gives him a null "mixed bag of feelings" read when what she seems to be describing is a scumread.
noteworthy that both seb and sunshine are included here, so i dont think a team of seb+sunshine+marley makes sense but you never know.

mercedes jones:

mercedes jones wrote:Sebastian's lack of content is suspicious, but the same can be said of Kurt and Finn- Finn provided little reasoning, justifying himself with a single possible scumslip (Which is fine, to put pressure on), but has since done nothing but state that "Mike is obvious mafia". Kurt on the other hand, simply parroted Finn. I haven't mentioned Blaine, as he has at least provided a bit of justification for his vote.

i dont like how she calls seb suspicious but doesnt expand on this at all

mercedes jones wrote:Sebastian is coming across as extremely cautious. He asks questions, but is far from forthcoming himself. Likewise, Kurt is offering up little in his posts. I honestly think that it's really suspicious, but easy to overlook with Mike and Blaine.

just continuing to track mercedes opinion on seb. iirc she votes him sometime this day so i wanna see if its unusual.

emma pillsbury:

sebastian smythe wrote:Mike, you're not helping yourself by bringing up situations that occurred earlier in and game, and have literally no relevance to the current situation now. The first vote on you was just because of RVS, partially being due to Finn saying you're tagging along for tagging along with him (saying your character was friends with Finn in the actual show). As he mentioned, it was simply for reactions (which you reacted rather poorly to) and it pretty much went downhill for you from there.

Also, buddying between Emma and Mike is evident on page 7, Emma seemingly agreeing with Mike's points from early in the game, which I mentioned are nearly irrelevant now.

emma wrote:

marley wrote:
I just read over this again and Mike Chang continues to dig in his hole deeper.

Mafia may not be able to kill, but they're still against the village nontheless. The only way they can win is by posing as village or hoping the werewolf picks off the rest.

His aligning towards village and leaving off mafia leans him towards scum being that he knows that we need to look for the werewolf and he needs to go under radar as mafia-scum. I'm fairly confident that Mike Chang is scum and why my vote will stay on him... also he called my face weird.

Also, RVS is how things start here. I'm surprised how you guys reacted so violently towards it. I expected a tad more.

I do agree that Finn Hudson and Sebstial Hummel Smythe do seem scummy when paired together with the blatant parroting, but Mike Chang did no good of defending himself that well.

But in reality, we really do need to hunt the werewolf. Biggest threat to the town right now. I'd much prefer bashing it out verbally without the pressure of being dismembered.. and maybe raep'd.

sorry about quoting sucha big post, but I cannot tell If Marley is showing a scum tell or just tuneling to much, Mike is scum for wanting to hunt WereWOlf and yet Marley is town for not?? make up youre mind

I believe the difference is the votes on Mike for trying to get Werewolf earlier, and the votes were put on him to put pressure on him. It's fairly obvious Werewolf are the bigger threat to the town due to being able to kill, unlike the mafia.

Due to the buddying shown between Mike and Emma, I'm going to go ahead and

Unvote Kurt Hummel
Vote Emma Pillsbury

notable here: seb defends marley, chainsaws her attacker, and joins the wagon marley started. looks pretty bad on marley now that i think about it. mostly because sebs defense he offers for marley makes absolutely no sense to me.
i like how i put it here thinking it would speak to emmas allignment but im not so sure. the attack is off but mostly for the marley defense. could be a bus cuz like i said the atmosphere was perfect for bussing but mostly it seems like a bad post by scum seb and not necessarily indicative of emmas allignment.

also notable that marley doesnt respond to this at all. the buddying seems pretty obvious but maybe she didnt wanna draw attention to it?

--

made it through 10 pages. gotta go now might have time to finish reading later. have to say right now im actually seeing the marley lynch. for now unvote

oh and @april your explanation about the tunneling is exactly what i was looking for. however idk what i have said that could possibly make you think id agree with your definition. but either way its just a difference of opinion and i guess invalidates my hypocritical argument. still think you zeroing in on blaine looks bad but ya.

Kurt

Spoiler:

Dave Karofsky wrote:-not sure why emma is obsessed with her "question" concerning our thoughts on finn. care to explain? to give a brief answer myself to the question: i thought there was a chance hed flip ww you can see my analysis on him but i also thought he was somewhat scummy in general so i wouldnta been suprised if he flipped maf. he woulda been lynch priority #3 for me but i woulda hammered at deadline with little regret.

I can't say, i have just 2 answers, but thanks :)you will see

Mercedes Jones wrote:@Emma The evidence was there, it's just analysis was a little difficult and frustrating due to the level of WIFOM involved in analysing Jesse's reads.

Every body, read this sentence, there's evidence, but no use of the evidence.

Mercedes

Spoiler:

Marley Rose wrote:I didn't get to add it since my initial post got deleted, but your first post was copying my question to Jessie.

That was an example of a non-original parroting post you made.

I do have this already, I had to say this before, but it is not read--
page 19

Emma Pillsbury wrote:Jesse--why did you vote Dave, if you inspected him, and as town?

page 19

Jesse St. James wrote:

Emma Pillsbury wrote:Mike--why did you say, you will vote Blaine, with the hammer, long after saying he was town?

Jesse--why did you vote Dave, if you inspected him, and as town?

I'm about to go to sleep, so this will be my only response. I voted Dave because when I inspected it only says "not werewolf" he could still be mafia.

page 21

Marley Rose wrote:Jesse, if you're the seer, why did you prioritize your vote by getting on Dave when he was clearly not the wolf?

page 21

April Rhodes wrote:I might've missed it in the 10 billion pages of nothingness but Jesse, you mind explaining why you voted Dave after inspecting him as Town? Even w/ the possibility of mafia, it doesn't make sense to vote him unless you have a really strong mafia read on him.

Mercedes

Spoiler:

Big point
My thoughts on the team, and not one player, are this--
-April + Marley : I have said things on this a lot, it's Sebastian, Marley voting me to "clean the partner" April (when I am town, on the lynch), both look bad to me. They have 1 mislynch (me), if this is it, and will be found
-Marley + Kurt : I did not think of Kurt is bad before, but Marley was not obvious to some, before Sunshine made a post, and Kurt had to put his old thoughts, to keep away the argument I made on him. If April is voted, or I am voted, Kurt does not make a point on Marley, they are free, and 2 mislynches close to the win.
-Kurt + Mercedes : No one votes Mercedes, no one talks of her as bad, Marley says "everyone thinks Mercedes is good", so Kurt is fine, and 3 lynches look easier (April, me, Marley) so they win. Mercedes talks on those guys, so Kurt is safe, has not thought to him after day 3.
-Mercedes + April : Mercedes says, me then Marley, two lynches, April says the same, and they are close to a win. April says Mercedes as town, Mercedes looks away on April, they are safe. Mercedes says day 2 inactives are null, it does not "clean" me, but is the big evidence on April, so she is safe from Mercedes, as the partner.
--This makes a circle, I think the 4 are the worst, Sunshine is town, and I need time on Dave. I think Marley looks the worst alone, but before the point on Kurt, I had no bad theory for Kurt, other than hammers he looked good to me, so April is the link. Now Kurt looks like, he only votes on agreed people, (only an easy lynch), April or me or Marley. If Marley did not become a target, he does not remind others of his evidence, no lynch. I think if it's Kurt, then Kurt + Mercedes, but it is possible with Marley, with the reasons from April's post.

If Dave is bad, some people ignore the old one, they are the bad guys, but I do not think he is.

I talked about time, since I opened the thread, reading the posts and writing mine was 2.5 hours for me. I could not do that for one post day 1 or day 2, too much from real life.

Emma there is a great big confusion between us at the moment. What you are saying has taken me a while to decode as mainly just trying to prove that I am the towns person i am but I think it could kinda really be applied to a number of people alive at the moment.

I believe the main point you have against me is that I want to hammer a lot as it allows me to vote with what the majority thinks. But if I were Mafia then hammering out in the open would be the total opposite to what I would want to do at this stage. I would want to have it so people wouldn't be able to notice I was following the consensus if I were as opposed to my own points.
And again I stress i create and say my own opinions like I was first to side with mike over Jesse, I had points against Finn from the start as well. I am not just blindly following the general view as I am trying to always say why am I going to vote that person etc.
Overall the fact that I am hammering is not a tell of whether I am scum or not and by me having my own opinions means that I am not just following the consensus and sliding under the radar.

I feel that I need more evidence than this though to persuade you that I am town and I will show you towards the final votes that you posted previously Emma. In both of those Mercedes and Marley voted for the lynching of Jesse and Finn. Then to show this further I went back to the Blaine lynch and they both voted about half way through on that one as well. Now THAT would be sliding under the radar. The fact that they voted for the lynch of all three somewhere in the middle is a great place to hide from scum hunting eyes as the person who hammered twice and "wanted to hammer again" is the : easy option.

I have already posted my judgement on Marley and will stick go that. Will also look in Mercedes further as well. But I urge you Emma to consider the points I have put forward prove my town ness. The fact that others were sliding under note must show this but also that the argument on me in the first place was weak.

HIHIHI

will post before deadline again

@marley;

Marley Rose wrote:I've said what I needed to say and plurality will likely lynch me out. Good luck town.

Saying things like that is so unhelpful.
If you are town I will be upset as heck. = (
I mean seriously I'm sure you knew when you posted that you could get the lynch off you.