Jungle Republic - Game Over

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bah

Hiii

Yeah just decided to leave it (vote). Might have a word about certain scumtells in post-game. Will try to post later to ight.

Can I request an extension (if ok with you guys) because I will be able to post at most once the next two days and this day is important + only five people.

Byee

If there were an extension, it would have to be for an extra 3-4 days, as I am unavailable until then, which results in another week-long day. And I'm personally not interested, as most of the finished players aren't either, in making this game last much longer than it needs to be.

If most of you want an extension (just say so in the thread), I'll contact Ryan or Brad to see if they can manage the deadline.

man i suck at this game.
i feel like i was just played. hard.
im pretty sure finn or april is the last scum. theres no way its mercedes and sunshine is quite unlikely at this point.

an extension would be fine although a 3-4 day extension seems silly so if someone could cover that would be nice!
ill do some more analysis and stuff later

Nice! scum #2 down!

Just saying I may have limited activity over the next week so an extension wouldnt fuss me but I dont think its needed really as I should be able to post a couple of times before each deadline.

Currently trying to find my top scum read for now.
Possibly April though could change

so i was scanning over the thread on my phone this time paying special attention to kurt/april/emma and i noticed this. dont know how i didnt see it earlier.

April Rhodes wrote:Tunneling day 1 is so silly when we need to cover as many bases as possible. Your inability to talk about anyone else seems to suggest you really want Mike out now. It's town to make an argument for someone as scum. It isn't town to spend the entire day 1 against a single player when we've got no information to work with. You are strangling our attempts to get shit done; please stop, move on, and let's find some other scum, ok?

lol wasnt this exactly what you ended up doing to blaine? maybe you didnt literally only focus on him but you had very very little to say about anyone other than him.

however what got me even more was this:

april wrote:He basically admits to tunneling which is a scum move, something that I've brought up before (and he's had no response to). To make it clear, tunneling is focusing on a specific player without considering anybody else.

this looks exactly like my definition of tunneling which april later disputed! i called her on tunelling and hypocrisy when i subbed in in my first list of reads:

me! wrote:april rhodes: this cat obviously knows how to play. however i was really irked by the hypocrisy of her attack on blaine. she was definitely one of the strongest supporters of his lynch and while this doesnt look bad in and of itself lets take a look at a post i found quite scummy which is on pg 13. april says “yes I do know I have been going after Blaine all game” but the bulk of her argument is around the premise that “He basically admits to tunneling which is a scum move”. she also has the nerve to call him out for calling the kettle black which seems to me to be what she is doing yes? this seems to me to be entirely a case of a hypocritical and thus fabricated scumread

to which she responded:

april wrote:Dave, I think you are a bit misguided on what "tunneling" means.

"Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them."

which led to our dispute over these two different definitions of tunneling.

however it looks to me like she basically got caught doing exactly what she was accusing blaine of doing, and then redefined tunneling in order to paint herself in less scummy light!

i can think of no situation where town would be inclined to do something like this. im quite suspicious of april atm.

vote april rhodes

i will do my analysis of interactions with emma later but wanted to throw this out there because i found it pretty incriminating.

this also makes more sense in full context and im afraid in an attempt to be brief i didnt give it all so feel free to go back and read if youre interested. outside of the first quote i provided above its pages 25-28.

this includes a part where i provide the definition "Tunneling is the act of focusing solely on one person to lynch, generally while ignoring the other players."

to which april responds "Day 1, I was mainly concerned about lynching scum, as I still am. What I was doing wasn't tunneling (under my definition, which I think you would agree, is the correct one)."

so yeah "your definition" definitely changed once i accused you of hypocrisy. hopefully my point has been made more clear.

Dave, you are wrong. Sorry.

You are under the assumption that both definitions are mutually exclusive, ie one cannot be true if the other is true. Thinking back on what "tunneling" means your definition is a broad way of saying it while mine states the actually fallacy involved in tunnel vision thinking. In the general sense, yes, tunneling is focusing on a person without considering any other causes. But at its core, true tunneling involves a user being blinded by their beliefs that they refuse to consider any other options and convince themselves that a user is scum because of how strongly they believe that or because they've believed it for a long amount of time, which is known as confirmation bias, which is a logical fallacy, and the real reasoning behind the whole "tunneling" read. I think even I've confused myself in this discussion, forgetting what exactly I'm trying to argue :/ When I'm telling you you are misguided, I'm saying that there's a difference between blaine spending 3 whole pages saying the mike is scum and he is willing to bet on it and me coming in near the end of day 1 and pushing a lynch. Even if we used your definition and ignored the mafiascum one (which btw is a site focused on NOC games, unlike your site) to say that I didn't consider anyone else was untrue. I did consider others, and most other people felt that same way that Blaine was the best lynch.

That being said, I also wasn't tunneling because (something which no one has cared to bring up) it was near the end of day 1 and we needed to find a lynch target. You can say it's tunneling all you want, but at the end of the day someone has to be lynched. It is extremely unhelpful to talk about lynching multiple people w/o a clear focus because it bogs down the lynch and prevents us from having a focused lynch target. I wasn't able to have the activity I wanted during the day, and so claiming I was doing the same thing as Blaine isn't true at all.

Please explain to me how making three posts wanting to lynch a user is equivalent to three pages worth of lynching someone.

My entire argument didn't just consist of tunneling. Take a look and read what I wrote. If you read closely enough, you'll notice there are other things as well (ie guessing aliases). You're taking my day 1 out of context. It's really easy to accuse people of tunneling, which is why scum like to do it, and I don't see how me wanting to lynch blaine at the end of day 1 is tunneling.

Good to see that Emma came up scum as that gives us plenty of space to work with. Along with that, I think it reaffirmed Kurt's alignment as scum considering the fact that his reasoning to vote emma was forced and emma suddenly shifted away from him at the end of the day.

Dave doesn't look good telling me not to hammer. It's a pretty desperate attempt if he was mafia, but it would make sense considering they are in a worse position now then they would be if we mislynched. However, his argument on me at least shows he's trying and I do respect that effort.

Mercedes is my strong town read atm due to exchange with Emma. I really can't see them bussing each other.

I'd be down w/ an extension (1 day left damn).

vote kurt hummel for reasons above

i'm tired and I probably fucked this up but let's see where the chips fall tomorrow morning

I don't see how me practically hammering emma with plurality reafirms anything. Surely its the opposite as what the Mafia will be wanting to do is force the vote onto the towns people.

Strapped for time so:

- thought of me as town on pg 28 then basically next page, straight after Emma's inconclusive analysis of me said I was practically top scum read. Extreme buddying of the mega kind.

- both April and Emma were practically the core of the Marley lynch.

- Emma couldn't vote me as it would expose April as being with here if she flipped scum.

- as I said above scum want to force town to lynch their own see point on Marley above then they try to repeat against me. However emma knows she needed to back off so removed her vote. However to avoid looking with Emma, April keeps vote of with very insubstantial evidence.

- anyone else find it odd that April and Emma only start saying each other is scummy after maf get day talk?


Overall April worst
vote April Rhodes

Bit of a late response to April: I guess the main difference is that Kurt had a scumread and did nothing about it, where as I hadn't made up my mind. I'll actually concede that point though, both are scummy, I guess the main reason I was arguing otherwise was simply due to my different perspective- I know why I behaved the way I did. However from your perspective I can appreciate that both are scummy.

However, I find it interesting that earlier (Page 13) you posted this:

April Rhodes wrote:Oh I almost forgot - Not voting =/= scum or being hesistant with your vote. There's nothing wrong with not voting anyone until you feel confident in a read. Any suggestion otherwise is simply untrue.

@April: What made you decide to go after Kurt and not Emma?

In my opinion, there are significant points for and against April. I've already mentioned that the way they target each other seems a little too aggressive for them to be teammates. It's interesting though that April switches to Kurt and later speaks in favour of Emma's L-1 posts.

The thing I'm having difficulty with is why would Emma not lynch Kurt if Kurt were town? She had the opportunity to do so, which would've bought her another day and (if town) sent the game to lylo.

Also found this on page 10

Kurt Hummel wrote:Sorry to go back to Blaine and Mike but you too need to post some actual stuff on Emma. Both of you stated on pg 9 you had "analysis" ready/almost ready which should have been posted by now. However both of you have yet to deliver on this point. I hope this comes soon.

If it doesnt it tells me that both of you are going for a quiet lynch really. The fact that Blaine even voted for her without any evidence to support it shows this further. RVS is over so there needs to be proper points behind votes, just saying "i'll post it later" is not enough.. and you havent. Additionally Sunshine has even put Emma down in her "maf" section which tells me that either your plan is working in getting Emma without people noticing a lot or youre working together (which isnt that likely really due to Blaine being in the ww section). Im not really using Mike on this section as he at least had the decency to not vote and instead wait for enough evidence.

And for those others who voted Emma it was hardly buddying so going to wait for Blaine's grilling of Emma to start before I can actually make a decision on her.

Having said that though some bits on pg 9 like Emma saying Mike was buddying with here when it was most likely the other way around (if we go with that judgement) so there are some signs that Emma isnt all that she seems coming through here.

So yeah people, work on giving better reasons for vote is my but mainly.

Very defensive of Emma here, which could be overlooked as he appears to be pressuring Blaine and Mike

I'm not at all convinced that Kurt's scumhunting efforts have been thorough at all. He's managed to fly under the radar a lot.

I think he's most likely to be the last scum

Vote Kurt Hummel

New posts from Kurt and April: haven't got time to go through these, I've really go to go, will look at them later

Oops, just realised that had Emma voted Kurt she wouldn't have avoided the lynch, as she was voted to L-1 prior to what Kurt would have been. Therefore, she still would have been lynched by plurality.

There goes one of my main points (again).

I'll have another look through probably later

For now unvote

@april: i think one of the things that bothered me was that you said i was "misguided" in what i thought tunneling was when what i was considering as tunneling was the exact same definition you had used to attack blaine earlier. it bothers me that you didnt mention that you had previously thought similarly to me and makes me think you were using rhetoric and redefining tunneling to look better.
i do get your point about how a singluar focus would be better with a deadline approaching. however your claim that this fits your scenario is a total misrepresentation of the truth seeing as your first big post initiating your strong attack on mike came with 5+ days till the deadline and your second one came with 4 days left
i dont get what quantity has to do with it. the fact of the matter is you focused on blaine even more singularly than he focused on mike.
i dont believe i ever said your entire argument consisted of tunneling. just that it was your main premise. if i did say that please point me to where.

also remember when emma put april at l-1 and april offered a town looking reaction giving several reads and emma unvoted? seemed like a possible little scum on scum interchange.

that being said putting my vote on april was to some extent a reaction test of both april and kurt. while aprils defense does have its faults i think kurts reaction is more telling. i thought kurt was equally if not more scummy and wanted to see how hed react to me putting my vote on april.
basically he sees a town vote on someone other than him and jumps on the opportunity to vote them and finds "reasons" why they are scum. however what is scummier is that he completely ignores the "possibility" that i am scum. yeah i looked pretty desperate trying to get the vote switched at the end of yesterday (i legitimately thought emma was town) but he doesnt even mention it. shows more of an interest to force a mislynch than to actually hunt the last scum.

and then theres emmas thoughts on kurt:

april wrote:Day 1, day 2, day 3, day 4
Wants to hammer, hammer, hammer, no vote
You do not push hard, also not vote, unless it is the "collectively" agreed idea. I just thought, "why does he always hammer?", but now it is, "is anything he believes, not the agreed idea?" I do not trust you now, if you do not stick on your ideas, do not vote unless its certain, this can work on lylo, but that is just blending, if it is done always.

april wrote:Big point
My thoughts on the team, and not one player, are this--
-April + Marley : I have said things on this a lot, it's Sebastian, Marley voting me to "clean the partner" April (when I am town, on the lynch), both look bad to me. They have 1 mislynch (me), if this is it, and will be found Smile
-Marley + Kurt : I did not think of Kurt is bad before, but Marley was not obvious to some, before Sunshine made a post, and Kurt had to put his old thoughts, to keep away the argument I made on him. If April is voted, or I am voted, Kurt does not make a point on Marley, they are free, and 2 mislynches close to the win.
-Kurt + Mercedes : No one votes Mercedes, no one talks of her as bad, Marley says "everyone thinks Mercedes is good", so Kurt is fine, and 3 lynches look easier (April, me, Marley) so they win. Mercedes talks on those guys, so Kurt is safe, has not thought to him after day 3.
-Mercedes + April : Mercedes says, me then Marley, two lynches, April says the same, and they are close to a win. April says Mercedes as town, Mercedes looks away on April, they are safe. Mercedes says day 2 inactives are null, it does not "clean" me, but is the big evidence on April, so she is safe from Mercedes, as the partner.
--This makes a circle, I think the 4 are the worst, Sunshine is town, and I need time on Dave. I think Marley looks the worst alone, but before the point on Kurt, I had no bad theory for Kurt, other than hammers he looked good to me, so April is the link. Now Kurt looks like, he only votes on agreed people, (only an easy lynch), April or me or Marley. If Marley did not become a target, he does not remind others of his evidence, no lynch. I think if it's Kurt, then Kurt + Mercedes, but it is possible with Marley, with the reasons from April's post.

and then after the marley flip:

emma wrote:Another Blaine, I will be reading this in weeks, and not think Marley is good. My ideas from last time say, it is Mercedes + Kurt or Mercedes + April, probably with April, but I think from that, the best vote is Mercedes, either way has her.

and unless im missing something im not really seeing how she got to this

emma wrote:-On Kurt, I had not just lists, but a big idea, I was wrong, he is town (I do not want to vote him, even to save me from a lynch, I don't know what to do, Mercedes and April will win this if I die, they vote me if I lynch Kurt), she says I have no analising, this is wrong there. She will use my analise on Kurt, for a lynch day 6, win with April, and prove she is wrong on me with it.

so yeah it seems to me like she lists him as possible scum all along and then out of nowhere she thinks he is town and is unwilling to vote him? emmas whole unwillingness to vote kurt just leads me to believe we caught the entire scumteam.

while i still think its possible april is scum i think kurt is far more likely.

unvote vote kurt hummel

oops. broken quote tags and the broken quote and the one following should both be emmas lol.

oh and also bs mercedes you stole my incriminating post on kurt. found it yesterday was gonna post it today.

he basically offers a chainsaw defense of emma by attacking her attackers and then proceeds to be all like "oh but i actually do think she might be scum because" and then parrots everyone elses main accusation against her.

he also parroted everyones main attack against seb iirc.

I find it interesting that Dave had Emma at number 2 on the Dave-o-meter, but then called her null later, and then said that he felt all along she was town. Though he explained it shortly before deadline, he didn't give any reasons when he switched Emma from #2 scum to null. But then, the fact that he himself brought this up in his recent posts seems less scummy to me. Overall though, worth keeping in mind (I only noticed halfway through typing this that you mentioned it earlier. This makes up for me beating you to that Kurt post!)

Anyhow, I've re-read Kurt's posts and this stuck out:

Kurt Hummel wrote:
Mercedes: I was not "extremely" passive, one might be able to justify " a little bit passive" but not extremely. I posted an in depth analysis of why Marley was probably bad and didn't vote because she was being lynched by plurarity anyway. I always try to go by the motto I just made up " only use vote when necessary, its the only weapon us town have so use it wisely" yeah big points there.

I really fail to see how a villager would leave lynching their top scum read up to chance. He does explain this later on, but the mentality here struck me as odd.

@Kurt: That's appalling reasoning when you say that you voting Emma should clean you. It need not do that at all- if a mafia member is facing the lynch, with nothing to be done about it, wouldn't it be better to vote them and earn some town points? I find it odd that you ignore this possibility.

Frankly, with the reasoning you gave for your late vote, you've done nothing to disprove this notion.

After re-examining things, I've decided you are still the most suspicious

I am planning on hammering, but I'll give a bit more time in case something happens, someone makes a really good point, or something. Idk.

@everyone: the daveometer is not the equivalent of a read. it was a ranking system that only took into account interactions with sebastian. ive already explained this. much more goes into a read than simply interactions with a player who flipped scum.
so no that was not flip floppity.

Yeah ok; short for time

But one of mercedes and I will hammer I guess and that should be gee

But will read all through again tomorrow night before actually hammering.

Bye

As in we don't need an extension!

Look everyone, I may have a lot of scummy points associated with me which for the most part could be argued correctly the fact of the matter is even though there is the scummyness, April is the only logical partner to Emma. You may say that I am bandwaggoning on a towns person but that arguement can be made back at you anyways, it is inherently flawed. April is the only possible partner end of story.

She showed partnering in day 1 as everyone saw (discount me "buddying" as I argued for and against practical everyone). She was only going against Emma after day talk was introduced showing new tactics involved. She has continued on Emma's track to get me lynched where few others have showing how she is going for the easiest possible lynch target; everyone else has stronger reasons why they are town.

Everyone other than her has either shown too much pro townness therefore rule themselves out of being scum or can't be a partner due to not having the right credentials with either Emma or seb.

Therefore only possible candidate is April. And hopefully after hammering me you will see that.

so
1)that was pretty much purely rhetoric.
2)youre still completely discounting the possibility that anyone else could be scum? like just cuz we have been "showing pro townness" doesnt not mean she is the "only possible cantidate".
3)youre not even gonna bother to defend yourself but instead admit our points are right..?
4)how was emma trying to get you lynched
5)someone hammer already

ps before people take it the wrong way the last bit is a joke

Kurt Hummel wrote:Look everyone, I may have a lot of scummy points associated with me which for the most part could be argued correctly the fact of the matter is even though there is the scummyness, April is the only logical partner to Emma. You may say that I am bandwaggoning on a towns person but that arguement can be made back at you anyways, it is inherently flawed. April is the only possible partner end of story.

She showed partnering in day 1 as everyone saw (discount me "buddying" as I argued for and against practical everyone). She was only going against Emma after day talk was introduced showing new tactics involved. She has continued on Emma's track to get me lynched where few others have showing how she is going for the easiest possible lynch target; everyone else has stronger reasons why they are town.

Everyone other than her has either shown too much pro townness therefore rule themselves out of being scum or can't be a partner due to not having the right credentials with either Emma or seb.

Therefore only possible candidate is April. And hopefully after hammering me you will see that.

Weak response. You don't bother to discuss the points we've raised and instead try to redirect the wagon to April.

When you refer to partnering day 1, what is it exactly that you mean? I have my own idea of what you're talking about here, but I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Your claim about the day-talk; it's very peculiar that you're asserting this as a fact- I've looked through April's D4 actions and they don't support this idea at all. The only evidence is that she switched and targeted you D5., hardly enough to propose this in such a strong manner. Furthermore, establishing a causal relationship isn't supported in that the game changed significantly when D4 started due to the WWs being eliminated- D3 and 2 they were quite exposed, so there was a substantially different environment.

Overall your claims about April in this post- that she bussed with Emma, that she is only targeting you because you're an easy lynch are presented with very little basis.

Due to IRL stuff, I will have to hammer within an hour/hour and a half